Category talk:Monarchs of North American Countries (OTL)
Technically, Elizabeth II of Britain is currently the Queen of Canada too. Should she (and the other historical British monarchs plus Charles III of Britain) be added here? ML4E (talk) ::Now that I've thought to check, there are ten American countries of which Elizabeth is queen. Of the ten, only Canada was a separate realm when she was crowned in 1952. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:08, May 27, 2013 (UTC) I should certainly say so. But only going as far back as Edward VII; before that it was just colonies that they ruled. And then we'd fill the category with so many British/English, French, Spanish etc kings and queens that it would quickly lose its meaning. Turtle Fan (talk) 16:21, May 25, 2013 (UTC) ::Since you mention it, the colonists would consider themselves subjects of whoever was king (or queen) at the time. Therefore, it could be argued that the individual monarch was one in that continent so British monarchs would go back to the first colony in what became the US, the French kings for New France (Quebec) plus Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, etc. I'm not sure you intended to do that TR although your comment below suggests you did. However, the category title says "in {continent}" implies the monarch ruled physically there. This would limit it to the Emperors of Mexico and Brazil from TL-191 (and OTL if any) plus any Aztecs, etc. (e.g. from "Eyewear"). ML4E (talk) 17:52, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :::If we do that this category will contain far more Europeans than Americans, and will lose its usefulness. I'm not sure of the exact legalities but my gut tells me there's a world of difference between the Jamestown colony and the sovereign constitutional monarchy of Canada. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:31, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :That was the ultimate goal: adding the various post-colonial British monarchs, plus the T2G monarchs we know of. I was also going to put the Brits who held the title of Emperor/ress of India to the Monarchs in Asia category. I just ran out of gumption last night. :I was considering a Monarchs in Oceania category for Australia and New Zealand, as well, but I'm not sure yet. Canada has been an extensive setting in a few works, and we do have a few Canadian PMs. Australia's been a bit player in the canon, and we don't have any PMs. ::Damned anti-Australian bias. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:11, May 25, 2013 (UTC) :On a tangent: it dawned on me that we have a solid line of Canadian Heads of State via the monarchs for OTL purposes, and that we have a solid line Canadian Heads of State (Fictional Works) via the TL-191 POTUS from Teddy Roosevelt through Thomas Dewey. Worth creating or should we wait and see if HT does a story where Canada is federal republic or something? TR (talk) 16:50, May 25, 2013 (UTC) ::Was Canada a state at all in AE and SA? I don't believe so. They never were too clear on its legal status, if memory serves, but a sovereign state with its own head, even if that head was the head of its conqueror's state first and foremost, doesn't sound like it. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:11, May 25, 2013 (UTC) :::Come to think of it, I guess it probably wasn't. Disregard. TR (talk) 02:10, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :::My initial reaction was similar to TF's but if colonies are included, then Presidents governing over conquered territory would be head of state so long as that state held that territory. Caesar was the ruler of conquered Gaul for instance. I throw this out for consideration, not because I advocate it. ML4E (talk) 17:52, May 26, 2013 (UTC) ::::I don't believe Canada became a colony either, but if it had, it wouldn't've had its own HoS. It wasn't annexed to the US, despite Flora's short-lived hopes, and if it had been it would have ceased to be a nation-state. All we can really say was that it was indefinitely occupied. It strikes me that that means the HoS position is either vacant or abolished. It's possible George and Edward would have claimed to be kings in exile. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:31, May 26, 2013 (UTC) Oh, one other thing: Do we have any modern Dutch monarchs? I can't think of any. The Netherlands is both an American and a European country, much like Russia and Turkey are both European and Asian. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:13, May 25, 2013 (UTC) :Sadly, we do not. TR (talk) 02:10, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :Saint-Pierre, Saint Pierre and Miquelon just off the coast of Newfoundland are French territory to the present. The President of France is therefore head of state in N.Am. ML4E (talk) 17:52, May 26, 2013 (UTC) ::French overseas territories, or coequal constituent parts of France? The Caribbean Netherlands are the former; Curacao is to Utrecht as Hawaii is to New York. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:31, May 26, 2013 (UTC) ::I always thought it was a French Federal Gov't Dept. but the wiki article says each island is treated as a separate municipality. ML4E (talk) 17:15, May 27, 2013 (UTC) You know, I can't help thinking that just about all of the above ambiguities could be quite easily resolved by renaming the category "Monarchs of North American Countries." "Monarchs in North America" could refer to anything from a colonial ruler to a king on a state visit. For uniformity's sake we'd want to do the same for Europe, Asia, and Africa, though it's not nearly so ambiguous there. (Not yet, anyway; the Emperors of India are likely to introduce some confusion.) Turtle Fan (talk) 21:09, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :That is probably what should have happened in the first instance. Dammit. TR (talk) 00:55, May 27, 2013 (UTC) ::It was natural to name it as it is. Monarchs in Europe and Monarchs in Asia already existed, and had given us no problems, so using a consistent format would have been the priority. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:09, May 27, 2013 (UTC) ::Works for me. ML4E (talk) 17:15, May 27, 2013 (UTC)